Curious about people's boundaries/views of ritual...

[purplerabbit]

[Poll #1270079]

If you click more than one box, it would be especially nice to leave a comment as to what circumstances change the answer.

Comments

[uncledark.livejournal.com]

Sometimes it's not about the magickal energy, but about the appearance of approval. That is, even if I think the ritual in question is not a spitirual/magickal intent, I might not do it if I don't want to be seen as approving or supporting whatever it's about.

I'm tempted to add "Maybe, if I like the people enough," in cases where I'm not opposed to the intent of the ritual, but simply not actively for it. In which case, I might do it to show support for friends in something important to them. But I would not set aside substantial reservations just to be polite.

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

yeah, what he said.

So for instance, I will go to xtian church to make my mom happy. I will try to avoid taking communion while there, if at all possible. If, as happened to me once, this means that an entire row full of people has to climb over me to get out to do their communion... well, that's their problem for not designing the church chair set up better, with aisles. Your assumption of 100% participation is not my problem, if I'm being polite and simply trying to stand aside.

I consider "not partaking" to be more polite than my alternative, which is "partake, but mentally change everything to 'gods and goddesses'" While I can (and have) done this, I think it skirts pretty close to being offensive. And while I may not agree with the xtian religion as I've been taught, I don't have to be offensive towards those who do... as long as they leave me the option to stand out politely. FORCE me, and I WILL make a scene for my right to decline the invitation.

[goldfish42.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I attended a high mass at a Catholic cathedral this past Spring. The Feast of the Eucharist, their holiest and most meaningful ritual. I didn't take communion or participate in the whole feet washing thing, but no one was asking me to and no one was offended. I think that going through the motions with a different intent in my mind would have been disrespectful to the god(s) involved.

It was actually a pretty powerful experience.

[ca-katarina.livejournal.com]

This is one of my two "ditto" comments.

Maybe, depends on how much I disagree.

[shutt3rg33k.livejournal.com]

Unlikely to participate if I actively disagree, but if my only qualm is not being 100% on board with the intent/content/background, I might still participate if I am connected to and trust the people involved. I don't, however, tend to take any form of ritual lightly

[zpdiduda.livejournal.com]

I will not participate in a ritual if I actively do not agree with the intent of the ritual. Additionally, if I know in advance that I am likely to find part of a ritual offensive to the point at which the energy that I put into it is likely to be negative, I will not participate. I don't think that it serves either myself or the other ritualists for me to do so.

If it's simply that the purpose of the ritual is not important to me, I would probably lend my energy to it and participate if the ritual --and my participation in it -- is important to people about whom I care.

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

zpdiduda said it well enough that I'm just going to echo her here.

[lady-equine.livejournal.com]

If I do not share the intent, then yes, I would probably attend on occasion out of courtesy or affection for someone, though not actively participate.

If I do not agree, such as a wedding that I think is a very bad idea, I will politely decline to attend, since I feel that attendance at a wedding is active participation.

[ca-katarina.livejournal.com]

This is my second of two "ditto" comments.

[worthyadvisor.livejournal.com]

I'll go to other rituals of different religions most of the time for the curiosity factor. I'm just interested in learning about what they do (learning about different religions is kind of a hobby of mine anyway). There are some groups where I just won't bother because it would just piss me off anyway (say, something like Westboro Baptist Church as an extreme example...it's just not worth the energy or time). Usually when I go, I'm polite, I don't take communion usually, unless it's another pagan event, and I'm respectful. If it's not something I'm going to be interested in going further in, I just won't go again.

[the-misha.livejournal.com]

The explanation, for me, is simple. If I don't agree with or share the intent of the ritual—even so far as, "I don't especially care about the particular goal of this ritual, but it seems harmless enough and will benefit someone about whom I do care"—then participating in it would be hypocritical for me. Engaging in hypocritical ritual would seem, from my admittedly limited and subjective perspective, like a Bad Idea for me. Q.E.D.

Of course, other people's mileage may, and likely will, vary. No judgments on anyone else's boundaries are expressed or implied here; these are only my boundaries, my reasons.

[goldfish42.livejournal.com]

I might if the religious beliefs were different but the end goal was something I could support. For example, a Christian prayer meeting to ask Jehovah to help bring peace to the world. While I don't worship that diety, peace is a goal I can support, and Christian prayer is just another ritual.

[freeimprov.livejournal.com]

Good manners matter. Being respectful to your hosts when you are, say, visiting family matters. And being open-minded matters. Religion too often makes people forget these basic things.

Last summer, I attended service at my cousin's very conservative Southern Baptist church, where he's been minister for decades. I found myself enjoying it immensely, because I agreed with his premise. It's actually his stock sermon - that salvation is something that happens every day. It's not just something you get for being baptized, or for going to church. You have to EARN God's grace through your deeds, constantly. In his mind, the greatest sin of most evangelical Christians is Pride. They sneer arrogantly at those who don't go to church, or haven't been baptized, or whatever. It was the subject of the first sermon he ever gave, and it got him thrown out of the church he grew up in. He offended a lot of bitter old church ladies that day, I imagine.

Now, if you think in a Christian frame of mind, his sermon makes complete sense. Even if you accept Christ as your Savior, you have to remain worthy of his salvation, every single day. But sadly, many of my pagan and atheist friends would never get far enough to see the beauty and power of that sermon. They'd refuse to set foot in the door of that church, or be unable to get past their contempt for Christianity enough to see the world through a Christian lens.

Sometimes, when I see political liberals getting too smug and haughty toward fundamentalist Christians, I bring up my cousin and the life he has devoted - not to the church, but to the people. I'll say he may believe the literal word of the Book of Revelations, but he ALSO spends months at a time building houses in Kenya or digging wells on Navajo reservations - what have YOU done to help the poor? He goes every single week to minister to prisoners, to help them get their lives back into society when they're freed, or to help them deal with their anger and shame while they spend their lives behind bars. What has your average liberal done about actually helping prisoners find peace, or become productive citizens again?

I guess what I'm saying is it's not just about holding your nose and TOLERATING someone else's ritual. It's about understanding WHY they do it, and how it makes them feel.

[ca-katarina.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your post.

When I was a wee lass -- o.k., when I was a fresh(wo)man in college -- I ran a ... lecture series on comparative religion. Except for the first session, all the speakers were students who spoke about how their faith affected their daily lives. The faiths spoken about included Unitarianism and Wicca.

One of the questions I ask people speaking passionately about their own religious belief is: "Which do you think is more important -- identifying as ___________, or behaving in a way consistent with the tenants of ___________?" I have trouble respecting the I.D. answer.

Thank you for the reminder.

[ca-katarina.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your post.

When I was a wee lass -- o.k., when I was a fresh(wo)man in college -- I ran a ... lecture series on comparative religion. Except for the first session, all the speakers were students who spoke about how their faith affected their daily lives. The faiths spoken about included Unitarianism and Wicca.

One of the questions I ask people speaking passionately about their own religious belief is: "Which do you think is more important -- identifying as ___________, or behaving in a way consistent with the tenants of ___________?" I have trouble respecting the I.D. answer.

Again, thank you for the reminder.

[bdot.livejournal.com]

i have always enjoyed the rituals at your house and the other places i have been....even though they are not strictly part of my religion....

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I will attend rituals where I want to support part of it but not the whole of it-- such as a religious wedding of friends whose marriage I wish to support, even if I don't like the religion's teachings on marriage in general. I have attended seasonal festivals where I don't understand the seasonal event in the same way-- but usually where I have enough overlap in understanding that I can do so with a clear conscience.

I also think I do better with single events-- like attending a christening (which I see as about celebrating the new baby) or bar mitzvah (boy becoming man) than about the religious component. I don't think I could manage, for instance, a revival meeting.

[davesslave.livejournal.com]

It's a big, big maybe for me. It depends on the ritual, the people involved and the support they need, and how I honestly feel about it, and whether or not we will be able to respect our differences of opinion, in regards to it. Each situation is too different to really have a definite answer.

[compilerbitch.livejournal.com]

I wanted to comment rather than fill in the poll, because my feelings on this are a little complicated. I am not religious, but I am fascinated by religion
-- I'm not a proselytizing atheist, agnostic isn't entirely right either. I'll be happy to explain more to people face to face, but I tend not to write about this kind of thing online.

I am typically fascinated by ritual, and am generally happy to participate in it, assuming of course that obvious safety/common sense boundaries exist. I typically neither believe or disbelieve any particular religious belief system, though I am sensitive to the energy associated with many rituals (for some difficult to define value of the word energy). In general, I'm extremely empathic, to a level that can be difficult for me to cope with sometimes, so I tend to pick up on the effect of ritual on its participants very strongly.

It has happened before that this has been overwhelming for me, so my reaction might be misinterpreted as disapproval, where more accurately it has really been something along the lines of, 'aargh, eek, this is really powerful, aargh, help, can't cope, it feels like something is trying to push its way inside my head,' and I've actually been struggling to get that under control.

'Maybe', explained

[ri-whittlesey.livejournal.com]

Maybe, depends on how much I disagree

I'm from a tradition that's based on discernment over dogma, stresses that discernment is a discipline to be practiced always, and is skeptical of ritual, as such.

I think of myself as conservative within that tradition, in stressing discernment as a discipline; and in being careful about all rituals.

That means, for me, inquiring within and Above, every time, whether it is right to participate in a ritual. Apart from accepting the spirit behind it, I've found no rule that defines 'right'. 'Right' has something to do with 'agreement' with the ritual; but that isn't determining, either way. And 'right' is for the time and place. I've found it, sometimes, right to participate in a ritual, and at another time not right to, in the same ritual from the same tradition.